I think that this talk (short) on motivation by Dan Pink is also interesting:

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html

He talks about the effects of rewards on intrinsic motivation. In short he says that rewards are actually good for *mechanical* tasks, but for the ones that require creativity (and PU is in part an art right?) experiments shows significant lower levels of motivation.

Thank you for sharing this Entropy!

Thanks for passing along the TED talk. I love them and haven’t seen that one.

Despite all our techniques, theories and lines and such, pick up is ABSOLUTELY an art… it’s an emotional process both in you and her, and even though you can reproduce that emotional process the same way twice, there are an infinite number of ways to do it.

sounds like alot what i went through. i used to love playing guitar, then we started a band. got some gigs. sold some cd’s. got some fans, girls, guys who were looking up to me just cause i played guitar. It was cool at first. then i started developing an ego around it. I started measuring myself to others. I started to hate playing, I wouldnt play infront of people cause i thought i was the shit and if i messed up people would think less of me.then i started thinking that people really only liked me cause i played in a band. Now i only play for myself and enjoy that a hell of a lot more.

This got me thinking.
So enjoyment drops when focussing on the rewards.
What about effectiveness. Does extrensic motivation have an effect on effectiveness?

Wow man, this is exactly a phase I’m going through. EXACTLY. I took like a 5 week break from going out at night prior to halloween to try and correct this, doing exclusively day game. I think it helped a little, but we’ll see. It’s hard to know for sure because last weekend was such a unique weekend out being that it was halloween.

In my law studies we had a course “introduction to psychology”. I learned about the difference between intrinsic motivation (1) and external motivation (2), but I did not know that that too much 2 kills 1.
Although … how many celebreties can say that they really keep enjoying “the small things in life”?
So not really lifeshocking news, although the set up of the experiment is interesing.

What I could suggest to guys having a burn out, is returning to the roots.
Words as “abstination” or “diet” or “spending time with virgin woman” can help to re-invent yourself and find back that childlike curiosity with woman.

Sometimes I hear other guys complain about my level of HB’s. That they are only 7’s or 8’s. I make myself no illusions and agree that I really do prefer te 9’s and the 10’s.
But on the other hand, I can sincerely say that I adore GOOD TIME with the other Godesses.

When guys say that theu have a particular type of woman to whom they get attrachted, I honestly think that they are no real female admirerers.

And female admirerer = 100% intrinsic motivation.

Examples of external motivation:
- money that comes with the coaching as you mention yourself. Tip: send it all over to me and I will prepare a saving for your good old day Entropy. lol lol lol
- comparing with others
- overvalueing others opinion, especially mums opinion.
- etc

To conclude: spending some free time with old women (+ 60), with nuns, hot Armenian virgins, your mother, your sister or your handicapt neighbour girl, and giving them the same amount of attention you would give to hotties, will inject you with so much LOVE that your dick won’t be able to handle it … hahahaha.

I’m totally going through this. If I’m not feeling a connection within like 10 minutes or something and it’s not progressing I am half-way leaving it on the table. Unless she’s a particular flavor I haven’t tried, this will keep me interested longer.

Great post and observation.

Brad P seems to be expressing a similar sentiment on his blog. Of 9-2-09
http://bradp.com/finding-girls-value
I find it interesting that the word “ENJOY” and its derivates, do not seem to be a part of his vocabulary.

I am doing work on my internal game. In the process, I was given “The New Psyco-Cybernetics” by Maxwell Maltz, M.D. Interesting that you would post your observation a few days after I read this, p 175 – Emptiness _ “ . . . someone who had been successful . . . Along the way, they lost their capacity to ENJOY. And when you have lost the capacity to enjoy, no amount of wealth OR anything else can bring success on …” He goes on “. . . Those in whom the capacity to enjoy IS DEAD can find no enjoyment in nothing . . . No goal is worth working for. Life is a terrible bore. Nothing is worthwhile. “ Ponder the feeling of what he says next: “ You can see these people by the HUNDREDS night after night knocking themselves out in night clubs TRYING to convince themselves they are enjoying it . . . Entangled in a whirl of parties, hoping to find enjoyment, always finding an empty shell. “
He says “The truth is that joy IS an accomplishment of CREATIVE FUNCTION, of CREATIVE GOAL STRIVING. . . . “Life becomes worthwhile when you have worthwhile goals. . . . Emptiness is a SYMPTOM that you are not living creatively. _ _ You either have no goal that is important enough to you, OR you are not using your talents and efforts in striving toward an important goal. . . “ One of his conclusions is “aliveness is based on constantly setting NEW goals, AND THEN, moving up steps of a ladder of learning in order to effectively pursue them. P177, “ Only striving for goals that are important to you – NOT AS STATUS SYMBOLS, but are consistent with your own _ DEEP INNER WANTS _ is healthful. . . “

This happen to me. I achieved my goals, thank God. I have regrets over not amping up, or take the time to ENJOY each milestone and ENJOY attaining each goal along the way. When I got to the top, I did not find new, worthwhile goals, to attain. Instead, I went into a cave of contentment, not realizing the slippery slope of joyless, empty living _ _ or maybe it was a slope of slow death.

Hello Knight,
Brad P describes very well the symptoms, but offers no real sollution at my opinion.
Brad P writes: “aliveness is based on constantly setting NEW goals, AND THEN, moving up steps of a ladder of learning in order to effectively pursue them”

I think Entropy just pointed out with this article that it’s not really the LACK of motivation that kills the hunger, but THE TYPE of motivation (internat versus external).

So instead of triggering again the result orientated mind set (as Brad P. suggests), I on the contrary deliberatly brake down the bricks that I constructed, and start all over again.
Results loose their importance when you know how to focus on wellness.

It requires a lot of courage and braveness to let go something you like or cherish.
How else can we keep our curiosity working for us?
I’m curous to read some of you guy’s suggestions.
As an example I would like you to try out the following experience-exercise: next time you listen to your mp3 player, songs that you know already and to which you got used to, try to image that you are Mozart or try to feel what Mozart would feel when he would discover the new modern tunes of music we now fabric in the 21th century.
Mozart was a great musician and composer. A tremendous artist. A real genious. But he was for sure not the last one, as there was still so much to discover.
Motivation comes from emotion, so said Entropy during his seminar in Brussels.
But where to get the emotions? That’s the real question.
Or how to handle the emotions? Another tough one right?
Maybe you guys thinks I’m speaking jbrrrisch now.
If so, remind that in the land of the blind …. The one eyed man is king.
Hope you guys see my point.
Cruise

Although I can relate to BradP’s problem, I think he’s going about it the wrong way. The idea that life fulfillment comes from creating/accomplishing goals definitely sounds like something that came from a self-help book written in the 50’s. But in the case of pick up, I think it’s completely counter-productive.

You’re basically fighting the burn-out of chasing hotter and hotter girls for four years by… chasing hotter and hotter girls. Makes no sense to me.

The two things that kind of kill it for me are: 1) Deep comfort game — finding and appreciating something amazing in every woman I talk to and 2) letting go and relaxing. Stop the extrinsic motivation so that the intrinsic motivation can return.

Nothing against BradP, I fucking love the guy and his work, but it sounds like he’s still caught in the hamster wheel of the community and “higher quality girls.” Finding a girl that a) is hot, b) is really smart and cool and c) won’t embarrass you in a club, isn’t THAT hard to find. But being with them doesn’t come from elevating your pick up skills further, but actually being able to drop them and open yourself up. Otherwise, you’re always going to fall into this state of wanting more… or pushing your skill-set further… or whatever… and back on the hamster wheel.

My issue is the opposite. Not only did I get off the hamster wheel, but I don’t want to fucking move, period. But my guess is that my intrinsic motivation will slowly come out (I just kind of need to detach myself from all of this a bit) and his will continue to whither.

It always impresses me big-time the coaches who have been in this for 5, 6, 7 years, how they manage to still be motivated. I really don’t get it. I mean, a lot of them that I’ve met are motivated by completely screwed up and unhealthy things, but still… it blows my mind. I’ve only been coaching 2 years, and my emotional motivation is all screwed up.

Hey man,

I think every guy goes through these kinds of phases. I can’t count the amount of burnouts I’ve had in life in all kinds of areas. Because I was doing things for the wrong reasons, or I still had to find out that wasn’t what I really wanted… What happens is that you throw off a certain mask, you stop looking at the world a certain way. So there you are, all your usual strategies for dealing with situations are now a no-go. Inertia is normal; you’re probably very perceptive of other people right now, watching how others interact and wondering how they do it, what it is that’s triggering attraction when they’re not using the strategies you left behind…

At some point soon, you’re going to hit on something. Something’s going to click. You’ll remember something that happened to you, connect it to something you’re seeing, and find a new way of doing things that. You’ll find a new paradigm, and strategies that go with it. The way it often happens with me is I’ll go home drunk and a bit pissed off, and then I’ll get all these epiphanies hit me like hammers while I’m walking home and lying in bed. I’ll wake up, and one by one new strategies will arise for every little thing. How I make tea, what I eat, how long I take to shower… And you’ll love it! Before you know it, you’ll be back: same same, but different.

Don’t underestimate how fundamental the change is you’re going through. You’re basically exchanging one world for another. Or at least, that’s what I think.

Rgds,

Phoenix

I actually don’t think there’s a whole lot of “change” going on at all… My experience is completely contrary to what you describe. No new strategies, no new epiphanies… in fact, I almost wish I could go back to not understanding why some things are the way they are. Human interaction is very, very straightforward and rarely deviates… I feel jaded and unenthusiastic when I go out and experience it now.

Again, it’s that emotional drive and excitement that’s gone… I kind of miss being that nervous/excited guy-in-the-bar. It’ll come back, but I have to just get away from things for a bit.

Leave the community and become a celibate monk at the Shaolin Temple, grasshoppa.

This post resonated with me so deeply that I am rousing myself out of my own deep apathy to respond to it.

I felt like I could relate to every word, which is reflected in my own blog recently in that I went on strike.

I was finding such a huge amount of enjoyment in this industry until the moment I turned my blog into a business vehicle. Then very quickly my motivation dropped drastically. I still feel motivated to work with my regular clients, but everything else has fallen to the wayside. I stopped writing, which is weird cuz I’m usually so passionate about it. Stopped feeling like doing anything. I’m bored with dating, I feel as apathetic about men as you do about women.

Everyone said to follow the David D style of marketing, and I tried to move in that direction and found it just wasn’t me. It doesn’t feel congruent. It feels icky. It feels “done,” like it’s time to move into a new paradigm. So as someone who always follows my heart, I feel in my heart that it must not be the right direction for me.

I’m also finding myself impatient. Not wanting to deal with anyone who’s not fully committed up front to doing this work with me. I find myself unwilling to work hard for anything.

I find that all I want to do is meditate, in bed, and that’s it.

It feels strange, but it does feel intrinsically motivated. Intrinsically motivated laziness.

I will say this. In the summer of 2008, right before Burning Man, I had a similar period of time. Everyone was worried about me because I didn’t want to go out or do anything, and I just meditated all the time for weeks. Then I went to Burning Man, and right after that my blog was born.

Anyway, ACIM says “I need do nothing,” and I guess we are taking that literally.

I feel touched by the honesty of this post. Which is something I liked about this blog for a long time. An overall theme of willingness not to pretend to be “perfect,” willingness not to go along with the crowd, and willingness to accept yourself the way you are.

I wanted to make a comment to Erika’s post. I felt that apathy in the form of your anger… I have been wondering what has been keeping you from empathy at times. I also felt the weird energy in your marketing approach because you are so genuine in your posting and it felt like you put PUA tactics into a very wholistic means of communicating.

I have to say I felt the same way when a guy I was really into, who I then found out was wealthy, wanted to give me a couple thousand dollars. When I got it… I felt exactly how you described about the money/business with your blog. It felt icky… I wanted as far away from this sweetheart, beauty as possible… it felt gross… then, later, something shifted when he actually blessed me when he went to the bank and handed me the envelop… I suddenly started to glow! I looked so radiant! We were both so happy about that! That was the beauty of the whole thing… and it was sad that the shadow came crashing in once more and that drove us apart.

I’d be happy to propose other ideas for you to consider for the financial side of the work, ways to keep the financial energy fresh, alive and vibrant… I’m interested in your work, just have been rooting for you to get layers of the stuff that isn’t you off of you. I’m not motivated to bring myself to fulfill my side of the bargain to coach with you unless I really feel you in your truth. And, often, I do! Thanks for acknowledging the mix up with Deida’s marketing imprint. Yuck! That is so “done”.

Hang in there with me on this risky comment… I have to say, sometimes, I think PUAist just took prostitution and made it a blog and a coaching practice… and this is a comment for the some of the guys who coach… what’s good for the goose, right? It’s fun for a while and then… well… so much for that…

I’ve been happily enjoying great results from Erika’s EFT, from lots of private time with myself, from meditation work, from not pulling on others for answers and from standing up to what is not of a higher nature in my life and asking for miracles… miracles are what it is really about for me… I also feel Erika has weeded through a lot from PU and she’s brought out some of the best stuff… I love watching and feeling inside myself the breakdown of all desire to participate in connections that end in apathy!

Erika, you have been a great source of wisdom for me as far as my ceasing to agree to be a sexual partner or any kind of female partner to any experiences that result in apathy. Thanks for all your support!

Entropy, all I can say is thanks for posting this… awesome!

I have a lot of thoughts on this, yet I havent quite gathered them all together. Here are some though:

It seems that with any variety of skills, its pretty common for people to go through the following:

1) you’re at your natural beginning or otherwise low skill level. you desire more skills
2) begin building up skill level, see signs of success, become enticed with improving the skill level
3) reach a skill level plateau, maybe observe that youre pretty good , but lots are better than you. feel bad about not improving for a little while,
4) then break through plateau and continue improving your skill
5) reach and maintain high skill level, yet not “perfect” as you see it. You look around and see you are better than nearly everyone… you can watch other people make “errors” at the skill in real time with ease. Still, you feel like you did when you had medium skill level.
6) Desire an even greater mastery of the skill, however notice that your current level has gotten you more spoils than you expect, and you have difficulty even remembering what it was like to have a low skill level.
7) find a conflict between wanting mastery, and feeling content in your current skill level, which more than suffices your needs. You feel like you *should* be achieving more, yet can so easily fall back on your current level of excellence in the skill. Still its all not enough.

The middle-early steps of course can repeat a few times.

What Ive outlined here I have experienced, but not just in pickup, in a variety of things from my life as well. ie music, work, school, etc

Omg, I feel very amused that somehow Gayla’s dialogue with me has ended up on Entropy’s blog. I started laughing out loud.

Gayla, I don’t do empathy on command. I do notice when I don’t feel like giving empathy, and I feel curious about it. But empathy coming from a non-aligned place is just as unhelpful as money coming from a non-aligned place.

I feel very comfortable letting my mixed feelings about all this sort themselves out. They always do.

If, however, anyone is waiting for the “perfect” coach, that person could be waiting a long time. The beauty of so much of this stuff is the willingness to get in the mud wrestling contest and get fucking dirty. Ok, I’m past all attempts to be perfect. I am fucking covered with mud, and I love it.

Thanks for listening to me vent

Hello Erika,

I’m curious how you and Entropy will both “move forward” in the coaching INDUSTRY (-;
On October 12, I have written a comment (19) to your post: Entropy, My Kitten, and Fear of Intimacy.
As far no reply from your side about this “kitten story” when you were 4 years old.
Now I read your comment above in which you kind off admit that you are losing genuine energy when tapping into marketing.
My question: Is this kitten story invented???
I would find it so hard to belief that a coach would honestly belief that her fear of intimacy is related to this trauma back in childhood. Feel free to elaborate how you came up with the sincere belief / marketing story.

For the rest, I would like to use this post as an opportunity to really move forward, for example by giving concrete guidlines, inspiration, etc TO TAKE THAT STEP.
Become a munk, I find it a bit drastic, but good humour though (((-;

I guess that admitting certain things is already a good start, like Erika did with the marketing stuff.
Secondly, travelling as a way of leaving your comfort zone has also a huge impact at my opinion. I’m curious if Entropy also sees it like that.
Thirdly I would like to suggest you guys a new movie coming up (Love Happens) about a “coach” – Dr Phill type of character – that doesn’t really walk his talk. It’s a movie with Jennifer Aniston and Aaron Eckhart.
http://www.lovehappensmovie.com/
Finally I would like to share a recent song. Hope we can see the tragical humor in the situation as all the problems we have are just luxury problems.
My English is not that good, so please comment on the lyrics to offer me some better insight.

THE BIG PINK – DOMINOS lyrics

Uuuuuh uuh-uuuh
These girls fall like dominos, dominos
These girls fall like dominos, dominos
These girls fall like dominos, dominos

As soon as I love her it’s been too long
Talks of future with you canes me in
Swallow my sugar kiss and eat it alone
Hearts get light and smash any dreams of love

These girls fall like dominos, dominos
These girls fall like dominos, dominos
These girls fall like dominos, dominos, dominos

Three words we shared said too early on
Stuck with forever float upon a tear
Swimming with the fear where we slowly drown
Ending at never arching melody

These girls fall like dominos, dominos
These girls fall like dominos, dominos
These girls fall like dominos, dominos
These girls fall like dominos, dominos (dominos)

[instrumental break]

As soon as I love her it’s been too long
And I really loved breaking your heart
These silver apples will shine on I was wrong
The hardest love has the coldest end

These girls fall like dominos, dominos
These girls fall like dominos, dominos
These girls fall like dominos, dominos
These girls fall like dominos, dominos (dominos)

Uuuuuh uuh-uuuh

Greets from Brussels
Cruise

Cruise,

I feel a bit startled that you would think a heartfelt post like the kitten story is some sort of marketing pitch, especially since I wasn’t coaching for money when I wrote it. Haven’t you had any experiences in your life that were so shattering they defined things for you from that point on? Most people have, I can tell you from working with so many. Most people are walking around carrying scars from long, long ago.

I feel a little disillusioned about the marketing side of all of this right now, but I still feel intense passion for the human side of it. When I work with my regular clients, and see how dramatically their lives are changing after a few sessions, I feel very inspired to find the coaching path that fits me. Already I like my new coaching structure.

Anyway, I sensed a cynicism in your post that triggers sadness in me. Perhaps that was not your intention. I do appreciate that you remembered the post, I feel touched by that.

cheers,
Erika

fireybabe
“The trick to happiness is a bad memory”
South Boston, Massachusetts

Hey Entropy : I had similar thinking about Brad P that you had wrt “he’s still caught in the hamster wheel of the community and “higher quality girls.”” _ _ The criteria he listed for himself sounded like a more detailed list of categories he puts his PU’s into; F_ _ K Buddy Relationship, Three Some Relationships, ONS. Either that, or he was being whiney, and just venting. He may actually understand the pain, you described having, in the event a LTR breaks up, and prefers to avoid that, finding less pain, OR, MORE ENJOYMENT on the hamster wheel. I also think he is on a different track. I think he is going to update the Playboy – Hef/ Penthouse- Guccione thing. When your able to attract a lot of girls, and want to play with them, very LTR’s do not seem to work. Hef married twice and 4 ? Children, I do not know about Guccione. I think Brad P is moving in that direction as he has a mansion in LA set up. I think the issue is how his venture becomes in structure, Playboy OR Penthouse.

I am surprised that you were a music major. I was surprised that Brad P was not.

I think you are maturating and experiencing personal growth on a much different path.

Creativity, not be confused with rewards for behavior:
The Over Justification Effect research seem to be about rewarding ENJOYABLE behavior, more so then rewarding creativity. I think the key word missed is “ . . . previously enjoyable activities”. Do The felt pens suggest creativity ? I think this particular research seems to suggests that enjoyment is a present moment experience that has a finite time of existence, or manifestation. It also seems to suggest that the same reward losses its motivating effect for same enjoyable behaviors. Possibly a different reward that the child REALLY internally desired would have produced a different outcome.

Mentioning Rewards:
For most males (80/20 N/A) , the reward of orgasm based upon minimal behaviors to achieve its ENJOYMENT to Intense Pleasure, is much less complex, and in most events, shorter experienced for females. How much external motivation is really needed in order for males to enjoy this behavior. Can it be construed as a reward as well? How much external motivation is really needed in order for females to enjoy the reward of orgasm? For those females that do orgasm (80/20 applies), how much more time, more variety, and letting go of perceived fears and anxieties is necessary for females to achieve its ENJOYMENT to Intense Pleasure. Do females perceive orgasm as a reward as something they deserve ONLY after all the internal challenges and criteria they set up to have sex in the first place _ are met?

Creativity:
Dr. Maltz writes that creativity is more of a function of self image/ Identity. Creativity is better left as a non-conscious process. He presents good evidence that conscious processes can actually impede creativity. This how the process of having a goal in mind, but no expectations of [the point in time an] outcome [will occur], is so effective in Pick up. He writes that one who attains connection with their self image THEN has the ability to set appropriate goals. He writes that once goals are achieved, new ones are needed to be set to prevent static being, and NOT move socially backward. The conscious process is one of setting goals, or problem(s) to be resolved AND data collection aka learning.

It may not feel like it, but your in a good spot.When I have long states of confusion, it motivates me to sort out the confusion into order. I usually go too fast to end the terribl feelings. I think Dr. Meltz would recommend taking your time to gather all the information you possibly can to determine a life style that is going to consistent AND congruent with the identities you may be contemplating a decision on. While your in the process of doing that, creativity requires conscious distraction, in a way that allows the unconscious to do its magic. Maybe a few good women and, or men, to go play with some felt pens, or whatever, until your “AHHHH HAAAAA” decision becomes made.